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So I finally got around to looking into Sub rogues a bit in 4.0.1 and Cataclysm for PVE purposes. The rogue community is currently somewhat divided on the topic of sub rogues. Some insist that while theoretically Sub rogues could perform exceedingly well, in practice the rotation is far too complex to master perfectly in every situation. This remains to be seen and results will vary dramatically from rogue to rogue. One thing to not for certain is that Sub rogues are evidently perfect for long duration fights. This is because the rotation is so complex in terms of keeping up buffs/debuffs they need a long starting up phase to get everything going and raise their average.
So after some scouting around I found a basic rotation that explains a good idea of how to play your sub rogue with easy steps. This could be an ideal rotation or it could not, I'll leave that up to you more experienced sub rogues to discuss amongst yourselves. I will try to help out when I can as always but I've never played PVE sub before so don't take everything I say in stone. Since sub PVE is brand new as a viable build many things could change and many things could be in dispute. It's also not clear yet where sub ranks against the other two builds.
Subtlety Rotation
1. premed/shadow step/ambush = 5 CPAs you can see this rotation relies on you being stealthed (much like assassination rogues) in order to begin the process. This will also activate [Master of Subtlety] so stealth as much as you can during the encounter.
2. SnD
3. hemo/backstab to 5 CP
5. rupture
6. shadow dance/premed/shadowstep/ambush
7. recuperate
8. ambush/backstab to 5 CP
9. eviscerate
As you can see the rotation relies on keeping the following buffs/debuffs up throughout the encounter:
1. Rupture
2. Slice and Dice
3. Recuperate
You can also count Hemo to some small extent but it's not necessary to keep it up throughout, it's more useful for target switching. You can even remove Hemo entirely from this rotation if you wish to on standard fights.
Recuperate
Recuperate may seem like an odd choice for a PVE rotation but the talent 3/3 [Energetic Recovery] means that when used sub rogues will gain a good amount of energy during combat. This is highly important for a sub rogue so it's a good idea to include it in the rotation if it can be properly maintained. Coupled with the [Honor Among Thieves] talent the build up of CP's makes Sub PVE feel a lot smoother than you would first think.
Obviously Recuperate will be your final priority after SnD and Rupture and may require some practice on the dummies and in heroics for you to get the hang of balancing these three buff/debuff up times. However it's quite interesting that sub rogues use the healing ability in order to gain DPS in a PVE situation and I have to admit I'm a little jealous of that!
Rupture
Not only do you sub rogues get some tasty CP building abilities and procs through HAT but also your rupture is easier to manage too, probably in order to make the quantity of buffs/debuffs more manageable. Just like Mutilate rogues who can refresh their SnD through Envenoms, Sub rogues can refresh their Rupture through [Serrated Blades]. This gives you a 20% chance per combo point (100% at 5 CP) to refresh your rupture when you use Eviscerate. You will still need to keep an eye on your SnD but the rest is 5 CP Eviscerate spam and rupture sorts itself out.
So as first glance sub rotations look very scary but once you get under the hood it's not that bad and forgive me for saying so but it feels somewhat like the hybrid spawn of a combat and mutilate rogue. Let's see, refreshing rupture (snd for muti), Shadowstep (KS combat)... yes I think if Combat and Mutilate had babies they'd probably turn out something like this. Whether or not the child will surpass the parents or not remains to be seen.

Thanks for good info! Ive been swappin specs from assas to combat, combat to assas and to sub.. In the end, i can personally pull the most dps out of Sub spec. My rogue is now lvl 69 and does 1k dps in combat, around 1k in assas and 1.8k in Sub.. You can guess which spec i choosed? :D
ReplyDeletegz! remember to check again when you start raiding! different builds excel at different gear stages and levels, they are all factors overall ^^
ReplyDeleteThanks for this post, very informative and looking forward to giving this a try. I have been combat forever to provide the buff and always in the top couple dps in our raids but lately I am mid-to-lower in the pack and the Raid Leader is not sure a combat rogue is going to be as valuable as Sub might be now short term.
ReplyDeleteyeh short term many combat rogues are chaning to muti or sub until cata. but considering how late it is now until cata, its not the end of the world if your RL waits and leaves you be instead. its no like we are doing awful dps, we just didnt get the bigbosts everyone else did so with that in mind, you can still do the content you are just not OP for the content like others are.
ReplyDeletedo you get what i mean?
Man, being rather discouraged with combat I tried out mutilate (currently my "main" spec for the time being) and sub pve. I have to say, sub is one of the most complex rotations in the game, but if you pull it off it's very fun. The only problem I have is the same problem a few other melee classes are having: even the top end DPS of some specs/classes is a lot lower than it should be.
ReplyDeleteim just holding out myself instead especialy as combat is now top dps in cata at level 85.
ReplyDeleteat the end of the expansion it doesnt really matter so much what my dps is at the moment and id liek to get the roation practice in as much as possible.
I am so lost lol. I try to get the rotations down but i just cannot get my rogue's dps up. I read and read and change the talents trees around but I just dont get it. SOMEONE TEACH ME haha
ReplyDeletewell first id say what is your spec? sub?
ReplyDeletesecondly assuming you are sub remember it is considered one of the hardest rotations to master so keep trying, practice on dummies and so on.
if you still feel like giving up and throwing poison darts at sub tree, try a different build instead :)
apart from that im afraid i cant go in and show you myself :P
I am not convinced the rotation listed is optimal - Sub is about bleeds, not white damage so SnD has limited benefit and cp could be used elsewhere. Energetic Recovery i am still calculating/undecided so i have left it in:
ReplyDeleteOpener:
Prem, ShS, Garotte
Hemo
Rupture
Rotation 1:
BS/Hemo x 5
Recup - to regen Energy
Rotation 2:
BS/Hemo x 5
Evis - to refresh Rupture
Repeat 1 then 2
ShD or Vanish as needs and repeat from the opener, always opening with Garotte due to the Hemo bleed buff.
I'm not sure what the balance for damage on abilities is for sub but i find it hard to beleive a dps increase as a result of dropping SnD, which is a staple diet for rogues. unfortunately i do not have a sub build to test ths out so ill leave that up to you guys to argue over ;P ill try to ok into more info on this again later on.
ReplyDeleteYour rotation would be fine without pre-med. I have found that much speculation surrounding sub builds relies heavily on combat dummies. In a REAL raid situation, HAT is working well enough that pre-med is never needed to stack points at a beginning of a fight. I simply hang back until the tank has engaged for 4 seconds, then I ShS and start my rotation. I put the 2 extra points into Initiative so I'm not locking out my hotkeys for 1 second while pre-med kicks in during ShD.
ReplyDeleteAlso worth mentioning, trying to juggle rupture in with the rotation is a hair-puller right now. I do more damage without it applied because there is zero risk of SnD or recup falling. However, once we get those 5 extra points, specing into combat for the increased SnD duration will make including rupture a non-issue.
post applies to cataclysm and has been added to the cata rogue guide
ReplyDelete