Sunday, November 7, 2010

Complete Guide to Weaponry in Cataclysm

There has been some confusion over weapons in Patch 4.0.1 and beyond including speeds and main hand versus off hand decisions. So I trawled through the interwebs, had some painkillers for the resulting headache and then sat down to share with you what I have learned so far about weapon speeds and weapon choices in Cataclysm.

The Basics
Nothing much has changed in terms of weapon speeds but the amount of choice and variety has increased specifically for combat rogues. Do not expect to need a complete weapon overhaul at all, it's actually pretty much the same so far.


Combat Weapons
Combat rogues can now use any type of weapon at all in either hand. However there is still a recommended weapon type for combat rogues. First of all weapon speed is still very important for a combat rogue and the weapon speed in either hand will predominantly affect the weapon type. Main hand selections are easy, Combat has always benefited more from a slow main hand than a fast one to yield more ability damage. The main hand weapon can be anything you like but remember that you won't find any slow enough daggers so that rules daggers out for the MH.

What will probably change is your off hand weapon. Combat rogues will still require a fast off hand weapon speed in order to maximise their talent [Combat Potency] which provides extra energy for each off hand weapon swing. That means you want as many off hand weapon swings as possible. Aside from this we also still want plenty of Deadly Poison procs as well so we need at least one fast weapon for both of these requirements. This therefore forces a fast weapon into our off hand.

So if the weapon speed hasn't changed what's the difference? Well, as our friends the Mutilate rogues will tell you, daggers are the fastest weapon in the game. Our beloved axes will only go down to a weapon speed of 1.5 at their best but a dagger can go down to a 1.4 speed. For those combat rogues out there with a mutilate off spec or a general weapon storage now is the time to sort through your weapons and do some swapping around. It is also now though that Instant Poisons and Deadly Poison are the top DPS for all three specs, combat included.

Mutilate Weapons
Mutilate rogues are still restricted by their weapons. The ability [Mutilate] still requires daggers in order to be used and so Mutilate rogues will continue to only roll on daggers for their weapons. It's also important to note that Mutilate rogues will also still use Instant Poison at the moment despite the removal of Improved Poisons in the talent tree because it now a "specialisation". That means all Mutilate rogues will get [Improved Poisons] automatically.

So the question with Mutilate remains, which weapon should I have in my main hand and which weapon should I have my poison on? It's important to remember that depending on the weapon speed of the weapon in your hands, the position of your poisons will change and the weapon speed itself does not affect what hand your weapon goes into. I've seen a lot of people get confused over this matter so I'm going to clarify this in a way that will hopefully be a bit clearer.

When mutilate rogues are trying to decide what weapons to put in which hands they should first look at:
  1. Weapon Damage. The weapon with the highest DPS always goes in the Main Hand.
  2. Weapon Speed. If both of your weapons are equal DPS you should place the fastest weapon in your off hand.
In most scenarios this means your slowest weapon will be in your main hand and your fastest in your offhand which is perfect. However in some cases it does mean that your fastest weapon could end up in your main hand. This is not a perfect solution but if the weapon damage of your fastest weapon is superior to the weapon damage of your  slowest weapon the highest damage weapon should still be placed in your main hand. This will vary so beware and use a spreadsheet to confirm! Depending on your actual weapons it may be that in some cases your energy gains form a fast offhand outweighs the muti damage from your main hand. So always double check your weapons if your highest damage weapon is not your slowest.


We also know that we will be using Deadly Poison still and this is on our Fastest Weapon. So in terms of poisons your DP will always go on your fastest weapon whatever hand it is in.

Subtlety Weapons
I am a bit more sketchy on Subtlety weapons but basically Subtlety rogues want to use two daggers. Sub rogues also need a quick off hand weapon. It also looks like sub rogues will be using Instant MH Deadly OH as per combat but using Wound on fiddly/multiple mob fights.To quote Aldriana:
Q: What weapons should I use?
A: A slow dagger MH, a fast weapon (type doesn't matter) OH. Currently this means a dagger.
Ranged Weapons
Ranged weapons should now only be thrown weapons. Leave the bows and the guns to other classes to roll on. This is because Blizzard wanted our ranged weapon to mean more to us than just a stats boost. So, with that in mind they changed Fan of Knives to become reliant on having a thrown weapon. This means you cannot use Fan of Knives (FoK) without a thrown ranged weapon equipped. Poison wise (oh yes you can now put poisons on your thrown weapons!), you should follow your non-periodic poison choices according to your build. You can also use Crippling poison for example on your thrown to avoid reducing damage during single target combat but apply helpful slowing affects to mobs such as the Val'kyr in LK fight when needed. This makes our non damage poisons tremendously more useful.

Summary
  • Combat weapon speed is Slow MH, Fast OH (1.4). 
  • Combat weapon type is any except dagger MH, dagger OH.
  • Combat poisons are Deadly OH, Instant MH.
  • Combat Ranged Weapon: Thrown with IP.
  • Mutilate weapon speed is 1.8 and 1.4.
  • Mutilate weapon type is dagger MH, dagger OH.
  • Mutilate poisons are Deadly Fast, Instant Slow.
  • Mutilate MH is weapon with highest damage.
  • Mutilate Ranged Weapon: Thrown with IP.
  • Subtlety weapon speed is Slow MH, Fast OH (1.5/1.4)
  • Subtlety weapon type is dagger MH, dagger OH.
  • Subtlety poisons are Deadly OH, Instant MH.
  • Subtlety Ranged Weapon: Thrown with IP.

29 comments:

  1. What poison is best on thrown for highest FoK dps output? I've put instant so far, but I might aswell ask... :)

    Rgrds,
    Shadeborn

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  2. Oh yes sorry about that >.<

    IP Mutilate, WP combat. :) Prolly WP Sub considering what it's mainly used for.

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  3. post updated to includes ranged weaponry

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  4. What would be the best enchants for a mutilate rogue?

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  5. oO search ... its so easy .... but if u so lazy click home above and read.

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  6. hehe yes its in the q and a post last up and also link to weapon enchants ad armor enchants is also here:

    weapon enchants

    armor enchants

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  7. You lost me in the Mutilate section when you said: Weapon Speed. If both of your weapons are equal speeds you should place the fastest weapon in your off hand.

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  8. What does Thrown with IP/WP mean please? ;-)

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  9. DivertedCircle7: aha! thanks very much ammended now. it was meant to read:

    Weapon Speed. If both of your weapons are equal DPS you should place the fastest weapon in your off hand.

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  10. anon:

    rogues now need ot use a thrown as thier ranged weapon. So, thrown with IP or WP means place wound poison or instant poison on your ranged weapon basically. This is a new feature as previously rogues were unable to place poisons on thier thrown. Primarily this will be used for Fan of Knives and situational needs.

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  11. Forgive my inner noob, im fairly new to rogues, but why would you ever use wound poison instead of instant? Wound to my mind being a reduced damage version of instant, with a debuff on healing to compensate. Basically if that debuff isnt required for whatever reason, i cant think of any reason not to use instant instead..

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  12. Don't worry you can be forgiven for thinking that because yes at first glance wound pales in comparison to Instant Poison. However, wound is sneaky and actually has a much higher PPM than instant poison. Since we no longer have points in improved poisons again as a combat rogue, the extra procs from wound make it superior. :)

    combat rogues have only recently switched to IP with the 20/51/0 build and now they are simply switching back to what they've pretty much always used :)

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  13. You say the MH weapon for a Combat Rogue should be either a Sword or an Axe. However, since weapon type is no longer a consideration, why isn't Fist Weapons included in that list? There are 2.6 speed Fist Weapons that, as far as I can tell, are the equal of any Sword or Axe for Combat MH - or am I missing something?

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  14. To be honest id forgotten about fist weapons but afaik fist weapons were normalized like daggers so wouldnt be a good option. Of course im not sure on this one though so feel free to argue.

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  15. Not sure what you mean by "normalized like daggers".

    What I do know is that a good fist weapon is easily a viable choice, especially if you only raid casually and have to rely on lucky drops in the one or two ICC runs you get in each month. For example, compare Abomination Knuckles with Frost Giant's Cleaver. They have the same basic stats and, aside from the Knuckles' obvious superiority in having more Haste and less Crit, the only real difference is the Low and High damage (equal DPS). Does something about that (lower Low damage and higher High damage) make the Axe more attractive?

    If I had access to both of these weapons, my current info tells me to take the Knuckles for the increased Haste, and Reforge the Crit on it to Hit. Is there something I am missing?

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  16. well firstly in personal experience i found fist weapons to be few and far between and the axes and swords dropped frequently, theres plenty of slow axe/swords in icc its just fast ones that we sometimes struggle with really.

    basically, im not saying you shouldnt have a fist weapon, as i mentioned above i just plain forget to mention them and since i dont know much about fist weapons for combat rogues right now im not going to muse any further.

    so at the end of the day if you have a fist weapon of equal value but with more haste on it, then i see no reason why you cant use it for now and i wont try to tell you otherwise.

    since you first brought it up tough i have been looking into the matter without much avail im afriad :(

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  17. When it comes to main hand weapons all options are equally viable; Fist, Sword, Axe and Mace. The main reason for choosing one over another will be the weapon damage range since Sinister Strike's damage is based off of Weapon Damage. A weapon with a higher top end range will yield higher Sinister Strike hits. You still want to take into consideration the other stats on the weapons though.

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  18. Thanks Diverted Circle7 :) That makes sense

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  19. Thanks for the response - I get it now. I must have weird luck. I'm a casual raider, and in all of my (limited) raid experience, I've not seen many of the axes or swords dropping, but I've seen (and won) several fist weapons, most notably the one I'm using now. (The aforementioned Abomination Knuckles.) Glad to know it isn't a sub-par weapon. :)

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  20. i would like to know if the 3 expertise from the human racial skill is worth equipping a 1.5 sword in offhand compared to a 1.4 dagger

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  21. Just a quick question:

    I have two daggers that are both 1.8 speed, and I have the higher DPS one in my MH, and the lower in my OH. It says to have DP on the fastest weapon, but both are the same speed, so which do I put it on? The MH?

    I also have a 1.4 dagger, but it doesn't spew as much DPS as the other two do. Should I still use the 1.4 in OH with DP, even though it lacks in DPS? I was thinking something on the lines of maybe the proc in DP will make up for the loss of weapon damage...

    ...Or something like that

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  22. anon1: i think that depends entirely on the weapons, stats etc. Im afraid I cannot tell you without some sort of spreadsheeting involved so you're best to make an estimated guess. If you need 3 expertise skill to reach 23 skill then maybe. :s

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  23. anon2: same thing to you im afraid, without some spreadsheeting or at least knowing a little about these weapons in question i can't really say much about it. This is the kind of question that can only be answered with a good old fashioned spreadsheet when we finally get one again :P

    DP wise, if they are the same speed it doesnt really matter which hand it is in, it will work the same both ways really but you can throw it onto your offhand if you like a general rule of thumb for it.

    I would guess and say that having the faster dagger *may* be more benefical for you than the slower one as muti is very poison focused so poisons are a big deal. However, this depends on how worse off this other weapon is compared to your other two, it could be totally worthless :)

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  24. Diverted circle: Top end weapon damage doesn't mean diddly. What matters is AVERAGE weapon damage, and that is a factor of only TWO things. Weapon DPS, and weapon speed. If both are the same when comparing weapons, you choose the one with better stats.

    If the DPS and speed of two weapons are identical, but one has a higher top end, then it also has a lower bottom end and its minimum-damage range sinister strikes will hit for less than the one with a lower top end, but they will average out the same.

    If you have Abomination knuckles and Frost Giant's Cleaver, both weapons have the same DPS and same speed, but the fist weapon has better stats (more haste, less crit, and an agility socket bonus versus frost giant cleaver's attack power bonus). The fist weapon is vastly superior even though its top end damage is less.

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  25. DP on Thrown
    I am no expert theorycrafter but here's something ppl might want to try as it seems to work well for me.
    I put DP on my thrown and when I FoK large groups of trash I get sick numbers (80K+ on the whelps before Sindy when both groups are pulled and I ToT [2set bonus], CB and maybe even Thistle Tea so I can get as many as poss in).
    Maybe cos the whelps get 5 stacks of DP and it procs IP as well?
    Cant quite remember but I think it was even higher when we did the Many Whelps ach. on Ony.

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  26. I think that depends on the fight duration/size. Normally while going through trash you wont have time to stack 5 DP on everything so it's not that feasible. I think on massive one off whelps groups though it'll be much easier to spam FoK and DP profit :P All in all, for fiddly fights stick to IP

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  27. What will probably change is your off hand weapon. Combat rogues will still require a fast off hand weapon speed in order to maximise their talent [Combat Potency] which provides extra energy for each off hand weapon swing. That means you want as many off hand weapon swings as possible. Aside from this we also still want plenty of Deadly Poison procs as well so we need at least one fast weapon for both of these requirements. This therefore forces a [/b]fast weapon into our main hand.[b]


    Dont you mean OFF hand?

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  28. When I was running as Mutilate I always ran with DP OH and I pulled better numbers, but of course this depends on the mobs. The bigger the mob=DP smaller mob=IP. But this is all personal preference really, with things the way they will be in cata, I see FoK sort of loosing its meaning.
    nice trying to bold anon :p
    test

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